Bruce Lipton 1

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JOHN PETROZZI: Hi. Welcome to Living is Easy.

I’m John Petrozzi. Today, we’re lucky to have Dr. Bruce Lipton on the show. You may have read his book called “The Biology of Belief,” where he manages to describe the amazing process of how the body receives and processes information. He produced a gap between science and spirit, which is an amazing feat.

He’s a cell biologist and he just come out with a new book, which is called “Spontaneous Evolution,” where he actually interestingly describes this as a love story, so it’s going to be interesting to talk to him today.

Hi, Dr. Lipton and thanks for coming on the show.

DR. BRUCE LIPTON: I appreciate it, John. Bruce is the name so let’s go with that.

JOHN PETROZZI: Thanks, Bruce.

I followed your work for a really long time now and I found it really interesting. I think my background as a chiropractic kind of makes it more interesting. But the way that you talk about the cells and the body, it’s fairly straightforward. Can you sort of give us some background about yourself and your research?

DR. BRUCE LIPTON: Okay, very quickly. I was cloning stem cells a long time ago – and I mean, LONG time ago. A lot of people think stem cells are relatively new. I was cloning them back in 1967, forty-something years ago.


DR. BRUCE LIPTON: What was very interesting about the experiments is that I would isolate one cell, put it in a petri dish by itself and it would divide every ten hours or so. After about two weeks, I’d have thousands of cells in the petri dish. But what was important was every cell was genetically identical because it came from the same parent.

Then, what I did in my experiment – this is the part that blew my mind; because I was teaching in a medical school at the same time and I was teaching conventional story that genes control life – so here I am with this plate with thousands of genetically identical cells, I split them up into three groups and put them into three different petri dishes. I changed the culture medium with slightly different constituents in each of the three dishes. So, there are three dishes with cells in different environments, because the culture medium is the environment for the cell.

In one dish, the cells formed bone with the culture medium that I put in. A different culture medium in the second dish, the cells formed muscle. With the third different culture medium, the other cells formed fat cells.

JOHN PETROZZI: They all came from the same stem cell?

DR. BRUCE LIPTON: They came from the same stem cell and they were all genetically identical. So, when the experiments started, all of the cells were genetically identical, and yet, they had different fates, so the very big obvious question is “What controlled the fate of the cell?” The answer was, the only thing that was different was the environment.

When I put all this together, of course, it didn’t really jive with what I was teaching because I’m telling all the students in medical school, “Yes, genes control the traits of the cell.” Yet clearly, the experiments revealed that genes are very important but it was the environment.

Well, ultimately following that after 30 years of research, it really came down to understanding the nature, a very simple truth, that in a petri dish, I changed the culture environment and I changed the fate of the cells by whatever chemistries in the culture medium.

A human body really by definition – this is funny if you think about it – a human body is a skin covered petri dish. It has 50 trillion cells living in it. So underneath your skin are 50 trillion cells in this giant petri dish. The culture medium for the cells is called “the blood.” If you change the chemistry of the blood, it’s the same as changing the culture medium in a plastic petri dish. So, the fate of the cells in my body is directly related to the culture medium – the blood and its chemistry.

Then, you find out, oh my goodness, the brain is like a chemist. The brain secretes the chemistry into the blood that changes the fate of the cells. But the brain doesn’t do this automatically. It does it in connection with our mind, our beliefs, and our perceptions.

So if you’re afraid, for example, if you live in fear, you’re releasing stress hormones into the culture medium (the blood) and that changes the fate of the cells as they get into protection. Or if you’re living in love, you’re releasing things like serotonin and dopamine chemistry into the blood. Those chemicals promote growth and harmony. So it’s just as you switch from love to fear, you change the chemistry of your blood, and the blood chemistry controls the fate of your cells. So, your mind is controlling the genetics of your cells.

This is actually the foundation of a new science since the time I did my research. The new science is called “epigenetics.” What we were teaching in school was genetics, which says, “Hey, genes control your life. You didn’t pick the genes, as far as we know, in getting here on the planet. You can’t change the genes. If genes control your life, you didn’t pick them, you can’t change them; then, you become a victim of your heredity.”

We believe, “Oh my God. My life is being controlled by genes. There are forces outside of my control.” Then, it turns out, no – the new science reveals that by changing your mind, you change the chemistry of the environment and the cells respond by changing their genetics. This is called “Epigenetics.” That’s a new science. Epi means “above.” So, when you say “epigenetic control,” literally, you’re just saying, “control above the genes.” Now, we know that as we perceive the world, we change our genetics.

When you say, “Oh, these are your genes and that’s for the rest of your life,” now, we find on a day-by-day basis, how you respond to life changes your genetics dynamically. So, if you change your perceptions and beliefs, you change your biology.

The simplest example for most people I get is we can talk about a terminally ill patient. The doctors and the family, everybody who sees this person is like, “Oh my goodness. They’re dying; they’re on their way out.” Then, all of a sudden, this person experiences what’s called a “spontaneous remission.”

JOHN PETROZZI: That’s right.

DR. BRUCE LIPTON: We say, “Well, what causes instantaneously transforming from death to life?” and the answer was: The common understanding of spontaneous remission is that all those people that experienced it had a profound change in their consciousness or their perceptions or beliefs about life.

Basically, it is the fullest expression of epigenetics that says, “My goodness. You can be almost dead, but if you change your mind, you can bring everything back to life again.” It’s the basis of what the placebo effect is.

JOHN PETROZZI: Exactly. I was going to say that it sheds a light on the placebo effect, doesn’t it?

DR. BRUCE LIPTON: That’s totally what the placebo effect is because it wasn’t the treatment, the drug, or chemistry because it could’ve been a sugar pill; and yet, it causes healing not because the pill had any value but because the belief in the pill had the value.

JOHN PETROZZI: So interesting. In essence, the text books will be rewritten, won’t they?

DR. BRUCE LIPTON: They are in the process of being rewritten now. Very interestingly, it was just about three or so weeks ago, Time Magazine – the international edition – had the front cover story about this new science of epigenetics. It’s introducing to the public after something I’ve known for 40 something years, saying, “Oh, my goodness. The way you live your life, how you behave, the things you’ve experienced and things you think about not only change your genetics but influence even the genetics of your own children.


DR. BRUCE LIPTON: Now, all of the sudden because the [0:07:38] says, “Oh, my goodness. I believed I was a victim because that’s what they told me. Now, it turns out I have a lot of personal responsibility.”

I think that’s the hardest lesson for people to pick up, because you program everybody for years that you’re a victim of forces outside of your control; and then, all of a sudden, one day you’ll say, “Oops! I made a mistake. You’re in charge of your biology.”

So, it’s going to be a difficult process of transition to rewrite the old beliefs that we’ve been programmed with and entertain the new beliefs that it gives us this power back. It’s very interesting, because allopathic medicine has taken a big hit.

JOHN PETROZZI: Massive, I would say.

DR. BRUCE LIPTON: Very. And basically because it’s been built on a wrong foundation; it’s been built on a pharmaceutical-built science that says, “I can fix everything with a chemical.” Yet, it turns out, “Your beliefs are the controlling factor. You don’t need the chemistry. You just need to affect your beliefs with it.”

That’s why it’s interesting. While I used to teach in a medical school, I really gravitated towards allied complementary alternative health, especially things like chiropractic, because it turns out, the best healing modalities don’t interfere with what goes on under the skin of the body. It leaves the intelligence of the system to do that.

I think we always thought we’re smart – more intelligent than the biology, and exercising that action has led to allopathic medicine becoming a very, very lethal form of healing. So, it means changing times. It’s not the medical doctor’s fault. Unfortunately, these people, like myself, but more importantly, the pharmaceutical industry, because a doctor is a practitioner based on learning experiences. If I give them incorrect learning and ask them to practice from that, then they’re going to result in a lot of accidents and things not working right. That’s what we’re seeing.

Unfortunately, the pharmaceutical industry is behind all this because it’s a corporation based on making money by selling drugs. If I told you, “You could heal yourself with your mind and you didn’t need the drugs,” the pharmaceutical company’s not interested in that. Therefore, with all the money that it has, it has been keeping us from actually regaining our personal empowerment – taking back control of our lives.

JOHN PETROZZI: Well, let’s hope things change, Bruce.

I remember reading a portion. I’m not sure what book it was or which one you had written. But you said that essentially, in every single cell, there’s a nucleus, which basically is the house for the DNA, and the current textbooks said that the controlling centers were inside the nucleus. But you said you took nucleuses out of the cells in your experiments and research, and actually found that the cells did work and did their job just like a normal cell with the nucleus did. So, how does that work that the genes aren’t in there and there’s no DNA but the cells still work?

DR. BRUCE LIPTON: Well, the reason why the nucleus was dedicated as the control mechanism – the equivalent of the brain in the cell. In fact, many textbooks still say that the nucleus is the brain of the cells because that’s where the genes are housed, as you mentioned. Since genes control life and the genes are there, then that would be the source of what controls life. We bought that story.

But then, it never really fit the observation, as you mentioned, of things called “enucleation.” These are studies that were done over a hundred years ago and I’ve done them myself. That is, if you remove the nucleus from the cell, you’re taking out the nucleus and the genes. If you say that the nucleus is the brain of the cell, then, the simple reality is if you take the brain out of any living organism and throw it away, the organism immediately dies.

Yet, if you take out the so called “brain” of the cell (the nucleus), it turns out that the behavior of the cell doesn’t change. It still continues functioning just like it was doing before. It’s not just sitting there – it’s breathing, eating, defecating, moving around, and communicating with other cells.

JOHN PETROZZI: It can even reproduce, would you say?

DR. BRUCE LIPTON: It’s doing everything without genes. So, basically, if you think that genes are responsible for controlling the fate of the cell, you have to rethink that entire statement because here are cells – many of them can live two or more months with no genes in them and still carry out a normal life. So, it says our perception of “genes control life” is totally wrong and it leads us to a newer understanding about life.


On the way here to the studio, I was just thinking about that particular concept, and I was just thinking of plants and grasses. A bunch of grass doesn’t have a nervous system as such but it’s got energetics in there. What happens if you take the nucleus with the genes out of the cells of a plant, for instance? What happens then?

DR. BRUCE LIPTON: Same thing. They’ll live for a long period of time. Then, here’s when the cell suffers the consequences of taking the genes out. It’s very simple. Well, what are the genes? The genes are blueprints to make the parts of this cellular machinery. The parts, just like the parts in a vehicle like a car, at some point that you use them, they wear out.


DR. BRUCE LIPTON: So, we keep the genes in the cell so that if the parts wear out, I can replace them with new more functional parts.

So, it says, “Well, how long can a cell live without its genes?” The answer is: It can live without the genes until vital parts break down just like in a car and then, you’re stuck on the side of the road and it’s not going anywhere. That’s when the cell has a problem. But it can go for a long time before the parts wear out. In that going period, it’s operating beautifully without any genes.

So, it says, “When you remove the genes, the cell will ultimately suffer when you need it to reproduce a part.” It’s interesting because as I said of conventional awareness, the nucleus with the genes represents the brain of the cell. The truth is, the nucleus with the genes are the gonads of the cell – they’re reproduction.


DR. BRUCE LIPTON: So, when you take a nucleus out, the cell can’t reproduce the parts and it can’t reproduce itself. I joke in my lecture so I always say, “You know, science is a male-dominated profession since apparently, males think with their gonads.” It’s a joke. Making the nucleus the brain of the cell seems kind of normal, and the reality is no, it’s reproduction and not control.

JOHN PETROZZI: Okay. Well, that makes a lot of sense.

In your book, you mentioned a thing called the “biological imperative.” In a recent interview with another writer, we spoke about that the brain has a propensity to think of the negative to try and preserve the body and preserve its life. How does the biological imperative sort of affect our level of happiness and contentment with life?

DR. BRUCE LIPTON: Well, today, if you just go take a general survey of the population of the world, you’re going to find that most people are very anxious and nervous right now. You say, “But why?” Because, well, there’s news that the environments are [not people], and their lives are being threatened. To some degree, everyone feels that the situation is shaking and, “What does this mean to my personal life?”

You go back to say, “Well, what is the biological imperative?” It’s an understanding without a connected mechanism. Science still doesn’t know where it’s based in the biology but it’s recognized it exists. That is, any organism – from the lowest one; from the bacterium all the way up to the human – if you threaten its life, it will automatically take every action possible to stay alive. Even a bacterium, if you try to kill it, it’s going to do everything it can to stay alive.

The point is, “What drives this thing alive?” Well, we say, “That’s called the biological imperative.” Every organism will not sit there and just accept death. Every organism has a drive to stay alive. So basically, it says, “Every organism from bacteria to humans all over the planet has a drive to stay alive.” If anything threatens that life, the biological imperative is a mechanism that brings this to the attention of the organism. It says, “Your life is in threat,” and its function is to motivate us to take actions to stay alive.

Everybody around the world, essentially, at some level, is feeling something internal. Something just doesn’t feel right. It’s like something’s wrong, something’s not right. Well, what is that? It’s an awareness that’s coming to the system that the system is interpreting the environment, saying, “We’re being threatened. Our life is being threatened.” It’s getting people on edge to do what? “Move! We’ve got to do something.”

So, we’re pushing ourselves as a global civilization because we’re facing an extinction right now. Human behaviors so undermine the environment that we’re destroying the environment to provide for our own lives. Basically, our lives are in threat. The population is experiencing it and it’s getting ready to take actions that will encourage our survival and our drive into a better way of life. We’re on the edge of facing a move that is necessary to survive, a move that is going to lead into our evolution. It’s a very good sign.

That’s why I try to get people to understand, if you look at the world, read the news, see the crises, the immediate first concern is, “Oh my God! Everything that I know about the way the world is working is falling apart. I’m afraid!” Then, I have to go like this, I say – this is a really interesting point – science has already recognized that we’re going into a mass extinction. We’re killing off species faster than ever in recorded history, which includes us. So, science is saying, “We’re facing our own demise at this point.”

Then, I bring up a quote, simple and love from Albert Einstein. The quote is: “You cannot solve the problems with the same thinking that created them.”

Then, you look around the world and say, “Well, what’s causing the problem?” I’ll tell you what’s causing the problem. The institutions that are controlling our lives, that we’re designed at one time in history to support our lives have now become destructive. Health care is not really health care. We’re now in health care crisis. Education is not educating like it used to. We have less intelligent people than we ever had before with more education. The economy is falling apart. The governments are not sustaining. You go, “Wow! I’m afraid it’s all falling apart.”

Then, I’m back there, the guy in the back row jumping up and down in glee, going, “Yehey! It’s falling apart!” Why? Because, as Einstein said, “Those are the institutions whose beliefs are leading us to the extinction, that in order for us to survive, we must change the thinking. To change the thinking, we have to change the institutions.

So, the falling apart of the institutions is actually a major evolutionary benefit for our future survival and sustainability. If it stayed the same, I know where we’re going. Science already said we’re going extinct. So, if you don’t want to go extinct, then it cannot stay the same. If we can stop long enough to say, “Wait a minute, the upheaval is good because the institutions that are undergoing upheaval are the cause of the problems.”


DR. BRUCE LIPTON: So, my whole message at some point is, “Hey, we’re evolving just the way we’re supposed to, except for the fact that we’re being programmed with fear because the institutions that are crashing are causing us to be afraid because they’re telling us if they crash, we end. In fact, no – if they crash, we survive.” Change of perspective – that’s what’s needed.

JOHN PETROZZI: Bruce, just with your knowledge, how do you see the future is going to unfold and what is it? What will it look like for us?

DR. BRUCE LIPTON: I’m very excited for it because it basically says that when we stop living the lifestyle that is very destructive of not just our own selves but of the environment, and start living a supportive, harmonious environment, living in a community, bringing back the relationship of “all people are part of one thing” we’ve held for years and years and centuries, I believe that my country-

[End of Part 1]